“Sealing the Deal”
Jasbina Ahluwalia interviews Diana Kirschner
PBS Love expert, psychologist and bestselling author, Diana Kirschner, Ph.D. has helped thousands of singles and couples to find the relationships of their dreams. Along with her team of expert Love Mentor® and dating coaches, she uses a unique approach to empower women by phone/Skype all over the world to heal from heartbreak and find lasting love.
Dr. Diana is the author of the new books, Find Your Soulmate Online in 6 Simple Steps and 30 Days to Love; the relationship advice book, Sealing the Deal: The Love Mentor’s Guide to Lasting Love and the bestselling dating book, Love in 90 Days, which is the basis for her one-woman PBS TV Show Finding Your Own True Love.
Dr. Diana successfully ran the 90 Day Love Challenge on the Fox Morning Show, with highest ratings. She frequently appeared on The Today Show, Oprah, Good Morning America, Nightline and Access Hollywood. She is widely quoted on dating, couples and family issues in The New York Times, USA Today, Time magazine, The New York Post, The LA Times, Cosmopolitan, People magazine and many more.
Dr. Diana also ran the Institute for Comprehensive Family Therapy, a nationally-recognized post-graduate center devoted to training psychiatrists, psychologists and therapists all over the world in a unique approach which combined individual, couple and family therapy. As part of that training she did “live” breakthrough sessions with singles, couples and families who were stuck at an impasse—showing how to resolve the most difficult relationship, family and work issues in front of large audiences of mental health professionals. Her seminal contributions to the field are summarized at Wikipedia.com.
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(00:48): Hello everyone and welcome to Intersections Match’s Talk Radio, a monthly holistic lifestyle show focused on the continual evolution into the best versions of our authentic selves. We and our guests discuss relationships and health and wellness, each of which contributes to meaningful and fulfilling lives.
This is Jasbina, your host. I’m a former practicing lawyer and the Founder of Intersections Match, the only elite national personalized matchmaking company focused on singles of South Asian descent nationwide in the US.
I’m very excited to welcome psychologist Dr. Diana Kirschner to our show tonight. Dr. Kirschner is a recurring guest on The Today Show, has appeared on Oprah and starred in a PBS special, All Alone. Tonight, we’ll be discussing Dr. Kirschner’s bestselling new book, Sealing the Deal: The Love Mentor’s Guide to Lasting Love. Welcome, Dr. Kirschner.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(1:46): Thank you so much, Jasbina.
(1:49): It’s a pleasure to have you. As a professional dating coach and matchmaker, I’m fascinated by insights and perspectives regarding relationships.
I’ve enjoyed reading your book and would love to explore some of the insights shared by you with our audience. Dr. Kirschner, what prompted you to write this book in the first place?
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(2:07): My first book, Love in 90 Days, came out in 2009. I’m a PhD psychologist. It was basically an overview of all of these research-based ways of dating, finding lots of terrific partners and someone who could be the one. There were so many women, and some men, who used that book and were able to find someone that they really felt a connection with.
Quite often, they felt anxious as the months went by. By eight months or a year and a half, they wanted to make sure that they could “seal the deal,” so to speak, and create a lasting love. I wrote this last book, Sealing the Deal, in order to give them a guide for how to rekindle the sparks of attraction that create lasting love.
(3:12): Dr. Kirschner, as a clinical psychologist specializing in relationships for more than 25 years, what is the most important thing you can do to create this lasting passionate love?
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(3:28): There are a number of things that you can do. In Seal the Deal, I talk about all of the different ways you can approach it. The most powerful thing you can do is to act in ways that are flirtatious. It’s a way that makes it feel like you’re having an affair with each other. There is a forbidden fruit feel to the whole interaction. People will date each other.
In a single dating relationship, after several months, things go on autopilot. You get together Friday night. You eat dinner. You go to the same restaurant. The sparks that brought you together in the first place tend to die down. You start getting bored with each other. It can be routine. Biologically, those sparks are timed to end within six months to two years.
Put in your mind, “What would I be saying or doing if I was having an affair with this person right now?” I’m not saying to choose a married person, but act like you would be. You would be flirtatious. You would send them sexy texts. You might meet in the middle of the day. You might have make-out sessions in public places. It might be a little wild for you. It’s not your regular thing.
(5:15): You want to switch it up.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(5:17): Yes, switch it up. No matter what relationship you’re in, over time, those sparks are guaranteed to die out. Those sparks that you feel in the beginning are guaranteed to die out at one point or another. You have to keep rekindling those sparks. You never take your relationship for granted. That’s what sealing the deal is all about.
(5:47): Your book, Sealing the Deal, discusses a love mentoring process. It lays out four steps. I think it would be great if you share the four steps of the love mentoring process with our listeners.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(6:04): A love mentor is like having a practical fairy godmother. This is someone who really believes in you, helps you develop deservedness, confidence and helps you get a plan that really works to move you forward in your dating life or relationship. There are four steps. Believe me, we all need mentoring in love. We know that we need mentoring in work. We take that for granted. We would never say, “I want to be VP of Marketing but I don’t need any help.” Love is even more difficult. You really need a coach or mentor.
There are four steps. Number one is to figure out what kind of input you need. Do you need emotional support? Do you need helpful criticism about your appearance or helpful advice about making yourself more attractive? Do you need a little push to speak your truth or get online and start dating? You have to be honest about what you need.
Number two is to find a love mentor. Make a list of all the kind and wise people in your life. Look for the ones who are successful in love. A mentor is someone who is where you want to be. You want to talk with someone who is successful in love. It could be an aunt or stepparent. It could be someone such as yourself, a professional matchmaker. You need someone who can really take you along the road to get the kind of relationship you want.
Number three is to ask your love mentor to help you, especially in the areas where you may have been a little diva-like or out of control. Ask for that coaching. Number four is to take in the validation and follow the advice of your love mentor. A lot of times, people will ask for input. They will say, “I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I can’t seem to find love.” But when you give them feedback, they don’t take it. They don’t listen.
(8:35): Dr. Kirschner, what is the single biggest mistake that women make in love relationships?
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(8:44): They let what I call “relationship killer beliefs” destroy love. These are kneejerk negative thoughts that kick in whenever anything goes south. You go on a rant in your mind instead of fixing the problem. I describe six relationship killer beliefs in Sealing the Deal and what to do to stop them.
One of the most common ones is, “I’ll never have love because it’s just too difficult. Love is too hard.” Another common one is, “I’ll never have love because something is wrong with me. I’m too old. I’m too fat. I have children.” It’s whatever it is in your mind. This is a killer belief that comes up in your mind. Then you go on a rant about it. You think, “This is so horrible. There is something wrong with me. I’m not that loveable.” Another common one is, “All men are jerks.”
(9:50): I always tell people that it’s very hard not to be transparent with that one. Men can pick up that vibe. That’s interesting that you find that to be one of the most common killer beliefs.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(10:08): Yes, it’s one of the six. There are variations on that. It’s being on your high horse, looking down at men and having a rant in your mind. You think, “I can’t believe it. How stupid. He didn’t bring me the right gift. He didn’t make the reservation at the right place.” This is instead of simply asking for what you want. You go on this upset rant in your mind. You could simply say, “Honey, I would really love it if you got tickets to this play. That would really mean a lot to me.” You would help your man succeed with you. You would help your man know what you want instead of being upset.
(10:58): No one is a mind reader. I love what you said. Just ask for what you want in a loving way. People who love you want to make you happy. The first thing they want to know, if they’re not clear on what makes you happy, is to learn it from you.
Your book contains what you call a “guy speak cheat sheet.” Tell us about that, including the key secrets to having a successful relationship talk with your partner.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(11:37): Guys are very different than women when it comes to communicating. In Sealing the Deal, I talk about how to bring up a touchy subject in such a way that you help your man to be more open, listen and rise to the occasion. If you want to have a talk about marriage and commitment, which is a scary and touchy subject, the first thing is to be patient.
The average length of courtship before a marriage proposal is almost three years. That’s what the research shows. A lot of women get very antsy when they’ve been dating someone for a year. They want a commitment. Especially if they’re a bit older, that becomes an issue. I’m not saying that you have to wait three years. I’m saying that, sometimes, a little bit of patience can be helpful.
Second is to start the conversation in a warm and validating way. This is called a soft start-up. This will help your man respond to the touchy discussion much better. You can start by saying, “Honey, I really would love it if you listened to me for a little bit. I have something important I want to bring up. I’m enjoying what’s been happening with us. I wanted to talk about this thing.” You are being very validating and warm.
Another rule is no drama. Women can get very emotional. They can get into these dramatic fits. That turns a man off in terms of a lasting, committed relationship. You can be a drama queen and a little bitchy in the beginning and attract a guy. Sometimes a guy wants to go out with you. But for marriage or the long term, that’s not something that he will want.
Bringing up a touchy subject in the late afternoon is best because testosterone levels are at their lowest around 4:00 to 6:00. Bring up the subject in the late afternoon, not necessarily after he’s had a long day of work, but maybe on a weekend. You are more likely to be listened to and to get a more positive response.
(14:48): Those are some really concrete tips. In Sealing the Deal, you discuss seven real laws of attraction and how to become irresistible to your man. Will you share just a few of these laws of magnetic attraction with our listeners?
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(15:08): I call them the real laws of attraction because they are based on research and actual clinical experience. They’re not just new-age ideas. Number one is to create novelty. Anything new releases dopamine, which is the falling in love brain chemical. You can change where and how you make love, where you vacation, take a trip to the Amazon jungle or go on a day trip to a town that’s new and interesting.
Even changing up where you eat dinner is important. Having fun together in novel ways is very important. Also, having fun in a way that is similar to the way that you first fell in love is important. When couples first meet, they will do things that they don’t do later. They kiss in the movies. They horse around in the pool. Having fun is so important. Women will get into a relationship and they become tense and serious about where it’s going. The fun goes out of the relationship. The vibe is anxious and the guy picks that up. You have to go back to having fun.
Also, be receptive to a man. A man has a very strong self-imposed need to please a woman. If you receive what he has to give, even if it’s not exactly what you want, but receive it in a validating way, it’s a great thing. If he brings you one daisy instead of a dozen roses, receive that daisy and appreciate it. If he tells you that you look really attractive as you’re coming out of the shower and you feel fat, like you have cellulite all over your thighs, say thank you for his compliment. You want to be receptive. Those are two very powerful laws of attraction.
The third one is the one that we talked about when we first started, which is to act like you’re having an affair. You want to have that teasing quality. You can tell him, “I want to meet you later. The things I want to do to you.” Have that feeling of having an affair. Say and act like you are.
(17:50): Dr. Kirschner, you describe men’s eight fears of commitment and how to handle each one in Sealing the Deal. What are some common ones?
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(18:04): The most common one is the fear of being controlled or smothered. For example, it’s the fear that he’ll never be able to watch sports with his buddies. He’ll never have his man cave time if he commits and marries you, especially if you’re interested in a very high-powered man who doesn’t have much down time. He’s probably working so many hours a week. He wants his little bit of sports. This fear is very common. It’s the fear of being controlled and smothered.
The way to help him out of that fear is to send him off for his man cave time and don’t hold it against him. Women will sometimes say, “Go do your thing,” but then when the guy comes back, they are angry and resentful. You want to send the guy off to do his thing. You do something that makes you happy. By the time he gets back, you’re both happy. He gets this feeling that you can both be independent at times. He doesn’t have to feel smothered.
Another common fear is the fear of not measuring up. He’s not good enough. He can’t make you happy. He can’t provide. Let’s say that he’s not making enough money or he’s not clear in his career trajectory. That is a big problem for men. They want to be able to make a woman happy. They want to be able to provide. The way to help him get over that fear is to appreciate him and tell him how he will succeed in his career. Tell him how he is making you happy so that he feels like he can measure up and make you happy.
A third fear that is very common is a fear of making the wrong decision or settling. This is a guy who has the “grass is greener” mentality. If he’s choosing you, the next girl on the online site might be better. He’s not sure. This is a pretty common one these days because online dating is giving men so many choices. If this guy is dragging his feet about a commitment and he seems to be the type who is afraid of settling, sometimes what he really needs is to be dumped. He needs to be dumped in order to realize what he has lost and how wonderful you are.
(21:05): Sometimes losing something is when we see the true value. In your book, you discuss how our brain chemistry shifts positively when we fall in love. This uptick is designed to fade away. You discussed this a bit. How can we keep sparks flying even after the feel-good chemicals are gone?
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(21:31): That is the key. It’s to understand how to keep those sparks going and deliberately work on keeping them going. There are so many couples who break up. It’s so hard to go through a breakup. As I said before, the initial infatuation that we feel is biologically wired to end in about six months to two years. We have dozens of tips on how to do this in Sealing the Deal based on what I call the eight habits of living love.
One key habit is to practice couple alone time. Research shows that the amount of time a couple spends alone is an indicator of how healthy and happy they are. That means that you are together without any friends, family members or the kids. You’re not taking calls. You’re not looking at texts. You’re actually focusing on each other. That is couple alone time. It is very important.
Sometimes during couple alone time, this is when you want to juice things up and act out that flirtiness like you’re having an affair. Other times, you will want to listen to each other, talk and learn about each other. A really good friendship is based on knowing each other. A really good friendship is the basis of a good marriage.
There are many other tips. One that’s very important for women is called enlightened self-interest. This is when you speak up about what you need from a man and you do it in a loving way. You get your needs filled. A lot of women are afraid to do this. You mentioned earlier about mind reading. They somehow expect a man to read their mind and know what they need or want. That always fails.
If you practice enlightened self-interest, you learn to use what I call positive shaping talk. You ask in a loving way for what you want, even if it seems like it may be too much. If you need it, you have to have it. Sometimes we need a great deal of attention. We need something that is symbolic to us because of the way we grew up. We may need something from a man.
Sometimes the best thing is to ask for it, even if we feel, “This is not the right time. He’s busy. He can’t really give me that kind of attention. It’s going to be hard for him to swing helping me pay for an apartment that I really want.” It pays to be up front about what you want, and in a loving way, ask for it and discuss it.
(25:07): If you don’t, you’re taking the opportunity away from him to work with you. That is enlightened self-interest. Dr. Kirschner, from your clinical experience, is it true that once a cheater, always a cheater? I know that you discuss this in your book. Tell us about that.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(25:28): Once a cheater, always a cheater is not true. In my book Sealing the Deal, I have a four-step process that you can use to come together even better than ever after an affair. The reality is that infidelity occurs even in happy couples. Relationships usually don’t break up because of affairs. They break up because the partners lose that connection and friendship.
When couples are asked why they divorced, 80% of the time, they will say, “Because I lost that sense of friendship and connection.” They don’t say that it’s because of an affair. I find that interesting. The common understanding is that it’s affairs that break up marriages. It’s really losing that friendship. The key is to rebuild the friendship. It can be done following the steps in Sealing the Deal.
The first step is that, if your partner has cheated, he or she sincerely apologizes and cuts off contact with his or her lover. This is very important, even if the person is someone who works with them. Sometimes that can occur. That connection has to be severed in order for things to work.
Second, the cheater has to show a renewed appreciation and devotion towards you. There is more detail on that in the book. Third, you need to have deep, open and honest conversations about what happened. Research shows that couples who discuss the details of the affair are more likely to make it. Isn’t that weird?
(27:42): That’s almost counterintuitive. That’s interesting.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(27:47): That’s what the research shows. You would think that the opposite would be true.
(27:52): Right. You’d think that the more you know, the more difficult it might be to handle or work through. That’s interesting.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(28:01): In general, having very deep, open, honest and thorough conversations is a really good thing. The fourth thing is to go into couples therapy with a couples therapist who knows how to help couples navigate an affair. There is a variation on this. Some couples therapists don’t really know how to help a couple get through this and some do. Your choice of a couples therapist is very important.
You can interview them. What people don’t understand about therapy is that it’s like anything else. You can interview a therapist before you go to them. You can talk with them a bit on the phone. My recommendation is to talk to three different therapists on the phone briefly about your situation.
Ask them if they’ve ever had a situation where someone cheated in a marriage and they brought the couple back together. Then pick someone who has a lot of experience with that. That’s very important. It definitely can be done. I was a couples therapist many years ago. I practiced couples therapy for decades. I ran a post-graduate training center where I trained couples therapists.
We knew quite a bit about this. We had many marriages where the couple weathered the affair and came back better than ever. If you can avoid going through a divorce, you’re much further along. This is assuming that you can come back and really be in love. You’re in much better shape versus the financial and emotional costs as well as the cost to the children of divorce.
(30:17): In Sealing the Deal, you describe five ways to heal heartbreak. What are the steps that women can take to pick themselves up and move on?
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(30:31): The really interesting thing is that talking over what happened with your dearest and closest family and friends is very powerful. Research shows that when you are upset and you pour your heart out to your best friend, there is something that happens in the brain. The brain will produce natural opiates. These are natural pain killers that help you feel less in pain. Isn’t that interesting?
(31:09): Physiologically, there is a basis for why it feels much better after you’ve confided in loved ones in your life.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(31:21): Yes, it’s been physiologically shown to be very powerful. Don’t isolate. Sometimes when people break up, women especially will isolate themselves. They cry on the couch. They eat ice cream. They watch movies and cry. They’re alone. They don’t want to go out. They don’t want to talk to anyone. That is the opposite of what you want to do. You want to make a beeline for those who love you and get support.
Another interesting research study shows that having an imaginary talk with your ex allows you to heal from grief much sooner. You could put a pillow on a chair and say whatever is unsaid to your ex. You can cry. You can hit the pillow if you need to. You can express your anger. You want to let out all those thoughts and feelings that you still have from breaking up to your ex, even though it’s imaginary and he or she is not there. That can really help you get over the grief.
Another way to do that is write a letter and not send it to your ex. You can pour your heart out about everything and then put it away. Put it aside. A third thing is prayer or meditation. Anything spiritual can be extremely helpful. If you are religious, praying is a great thing to do when you’re heartbroken. Sometimes you can have real breakthroughs when you pray.
You can meditate. Any form of meditation can be helpful. When you meditate, it allows the pain to come through. It’s like venting out hot steam out of a grate. The pain will come up like a storm passing through. Then it will abate. It will come up and out and then leave you. It comes in waves. Mediation allows that process to happen. It hastens it so that you work through those waves of grief. That’s very powerful. Last but not least is exercise. Of course, it’s the last thing you want to do.
(34:34): For me personally, I’m one of those people who loves exercising. I think it’s a great release. I can appreciate why it would be one of the five ways to heal heartbreak. I can understand how it can be so effective.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(34:59): The beauty of it is that it very clearly elevates endorphins. Those are the feel-good chemicals in your body. It can help you begin to feel good about yourself again. Quite often when you’re depressed, you don’t necessarily want to exercise. Even baby steps are helpful. You can just take a five-minute walk. Five minutes turn into ten and then fifteen.
(35:42): You get your shoes on and get out there. You may not turn back after those five minutes. Contrary to what many other experts say, in Sealing the Deal, you claim that you can change your man. Will you share with our listeners what you mean by that?
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(36:03): Studies show that people in long-term marriages really do shape each other. They do change each other. In Sealing the Deal, I have lots of tips about how you can help a man develop into his best self. I call that his “diamond self.” Research shows that in really healthy couples, what goes on is that the partners help each other self-actualize.
They help each other become who they really want to be. It’s not like one partner says, “I think you should grow into being this type of person. You should become a doctor. You need to grow in that direction.” It’s more like the person supports what his or her partner’s idea of their own higher self is.
(37:15): I love that. It’s a really important distinction. It’s coming from the person themselves in terms of the desire, interest or seed to self-actualize.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(37:31): Yes. The research is very clear. That process has a name. It’s called the Michelangelo Phenomenon. When Michelangelo was doing his work, he said, “I simply release the statue from the stone. The figure is already in the stone. All I do is release it.” That captures the whole idea.
(38:05): That is wonderful.
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(38:14): I don’t remember the exact words. The idea is that the statue is already there. It was his job to release it. It’s the same way in a great love. You see that your partner wants to be a matchmaker, fly planes, learn a language or be deeply spiritual. You see that and you truly support them. Your support changes them in a good way. It changes them in a way that they can be all that they want to be.
It’s quite magical. When couples have this, it flows back and forth. One helps the other to be better. Then it flows back the other way. This deepens commitment. In Sealing the Deal, I talk a lot about how this process works. It deepens the commitment. It deepens the appreciation of each other. It deepens the bond. It’s a very profound thing that happens in healthy couples. It’s pretty exciting. It’s very cool.
One way that you can get that going in your relationship is to give your partner a nickname. I call the ideal self the “diamond self.” If your partner is into sports, you might give him a diamond nickname of “Coach K.” If he’s into music, you might call him “Guitar Hero.” You are naming his diamond self identity. You are helping it along. You are helping it form. If you’re right on in your nickname, your partner will love it. You can do this early on in dating. Give the person a loving nickname that brings out the best of what they would like to be.
(40:35): Early on in dating, it shows that you’re listening to him or her. You know what’s important to them and you buy into it. You see that in him or her. I love that. That’s the Michelangelo Effect.
I really appreciate you sharing your insights with us, Dr. Kirschner. They’ve been really interesting. Is there any last thought or take-home message that you’d like to leave our listeners with?
Dr. Diana Kirschner
(41:02): Whether you’ve been dating a few months, just met someone you’re interested, you’ve been on and off for 10 years or you’re in a relationship where you feel uncertain or afraid that it’s ending, I have dozens of ways to move your relationship forward in Sealing the Deal. You can do it. You can kindle and rekindle the sparks that bring lovers together.
You can create that attraction that creates deep, lifelong commitment. You can take the reins in your hand. I recommend that folks pick up Sealing the Deal if that something that they would really like to work on. They are welcome to come and visit me at my website, LoveIn90Days.com. It’s named after my first book. We have lots of wonderful goodies there including a free dating tips and relationship advice newsletter that gives you weekly support. I know that you can do it. You can create the love that is right for you.
(42:20): Thank you, Dr. Kirschner. It’s been a pleasure having you join us today. Once again, if you’d like to learn more about the insights that Dr. Kirschner has been sharing with us, her bestselling new book is entitled Sealing the Deal: The Love Mentor’s Guide to Lasting Love.
In case you joined us late or would like to share this show with people in your life, I’d like to remind you that today’s radio show will be archived and available as a podcast on Intersections Match’s website, which is www.IntersectionsMatch.com. I can be reached at jasbina@intersectionsmatch.com. I appreciate you hanging out with us. Do email me with topics you’d like discussed in future shows. Make sure to join us for next month’s show. Thank you so much.
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